46 replies to this topic

[jaan]

I'm not sure if any will find this thread helpfull, however I know when I was going through if I had alot of resentment & had to deal with my thoughts & feelings towards God & religion. Then during my ivf I did alot of prayer thinking about the ethics behind ivf & had to do what I thought was right & right for my family. I think if anyone needs to or wants to discuss this "touchy" most personal topic this would be a good place. We are all here for each other & I know for me I did alot of prayer prior to ivf & thought about "what if we end up with xxx amnt of embryos etc what decisions are we prepared to make"

Our Faith is usually the core of who we are, & suffering with mf or ff if will test those beliefs, some find comfort in God others are angry, feel free to come & share those feelings & maybe you will help someone else by sharing.

[ejchrusch]

Thanks for starting this Jan. I have had a lot of questions, frustration, etc. about this. IVF is pretty frowned upon in my religion (Catholic), although I know lots of Catholics who have gone through IVF.

The main source of frustration was being part of a church that encouraged big families, yet put restrictions on how you were to do that. IF is something you're supposed to suffer with, kind of like cancer, except if you had cancer you can always try chemo or whatever other therapy was out there. The one priest I spoke with told me I should "just relax". Dh was so upset with the whole situation that he has stopped going to church. And how am I supposed to bring my children up in a church that says they never should have been born?

I don't know if there are other Catholics (or any other faith) who have had to deal with this, but I would love to hear from them. I don't want this to be a church-bashing thread (I am not a lapsed Catholic by any means). I just would like to know if anyone else has experienced these frustrations & had these questions too.

[jaan]

ejchrusch- Funny you should mention the catholics because my dh is catholic & we had our twins baptised catholic, I am protestant. The church never asked how they were conceived prior to baptism so I never said anything. I believe if they weren't meant to be then God wouldn't have allowed it to happen, either way my view is: It's none of the churches business how my babies got here what me & dh have done is between us & God & when we die he will give us his judgement. The catholic church likes to think they should dictate how people live, but until they show me in the bible where its says "though shall not do ivf" then I'm not going to worry about it. This priest who told you to relax, do we tell fellow catholics to "relax" if they are having a heartattack,or stroke? I guess medicine is only good for certain members of society.

I think the ethical/religious issues are when does life begin? That is a really loaded question & can get peoples blood boiling rather quickly when talking about ivf,bcp etc. For me & I only speak for me, My biggest worry was what do we do if we end up with lot's of embies? I prayed about this lot's because to me life begins with fertilization. I was terrified on one hand that I wouldn't respond to the meds & have nothing & terrified I would respond too well & have to make difficult decisions. This is where my faith came in. We agreed no embies would be donated for research & we would use whatever we had or donate, nothing would be destroyed.

[ejchrusch]

I totally agree with you. My family is really catholic and they know what we're doing and don't have a problem with it. If IVF were a guarantee, then maybe the opponents would have a point, but it's not. God definitely comes into play.

Your right though about the ethical considerations. Dh and I knew that none of our "babies" would get thrown away or used for research. We wanted to have enough fertilized so that we could do FET if the fresh cycle didn't work, but we didn't want to have too many. Well our cycle worked better than we anticipated and we transferred two and have eight frosties! So we might go from having no kids to ten! We've also discussed donating them to a couple who can't produce their own embryos. It is really tough.

[jaan]

I see your in the 2ww I am sending you "sticky vibes" & . I actually wanted to be GS but dh is against it, If I haden't had the c-section I would really really consider it, but any babies I would have now I would need surgery & once you have placenta previa once your at higher risk for it again so I couldn't risk another pg, although I would love to be GS for someone, its sad that I can't do that for someone. I respect the women who donate embies & are GS I think other than putting baby up for adoption it's the ultimate act of kindness they are truly angels on earth

[hopeful123]

hey a great topic
dh and i were muslims ,well years ago dh lost faith in god in the sence that he/she /it has any more interference in our lives ,he believes there is a creator and that is it ,its job is done ,it is not responsable for any thing that happens around here ......
i still beleive in god ,but from the very begening had different veiws as my parents were very diverse ,i believe as long as you do not delibrately hurt another living being and do good deeds you are good ,does not matter what religion you belong to .
now after very long angry discussions and bla bla bla finally they started ivf in pakistan and i believe the first ivf baby was born in 1988 ,since then peoples views have changed a lot over there ,as long as the egg and sperm comes from husband and wife its ok.
we are willing to give the rest of embryos after we have kids for medical research as we both work in health field and see people suffering and dying everyday ,and i know with this research lives will be saved ,even the ivf itself got so better and still developing due to someones donated embryo
only one thing that worries me about donating to another couple is that what if my child and the donated one get together in a relationship .......i know chalces are less than 1% ,but still there is a risk .... do beleive in that part of relegion
yes i am angry at god too ,for the loss of my mother ,my sister who has bipolar disorder ,infertility,all of the naturall disasters killing innocent people ,rape victims etc
in islam you can take an orphan in your guardian ship but cant give them your name ,i disagree with that one ,actually when i use to see orphan girls being forced in to prostitution(great sin in islam) i use to think about adopting atleast 1-2 of them to protect them if i can
never talked to our priests as they twist and turn your arm or the laws which ever way they think will benefit them ...this is my openion about them ...and they think actually have passed a judgment ...this women will burn in hell for her evil ideas....huh
serrogacy is yet not allowed in islamic culture by the so called priests ...but i do not want to ask some one for us as pregnancy itself is a risky process and i cant put some ones life or health in danger so i could have a child
have a nice week end ladies
sam

Great topic! I am catholic, and a catholic school teacher, so I have been having a lot of issues with IVF and other things going on in my life. I have been lying to almost everyone at school about what is going on and why I miss work so much, for fear that someone has very strong feelings against IVF. My principal is great, totally supportive, she's divorced, which is also not accepted. I read a story about a teacher getting fired in the states for having IVF which scared me.
If someone has a heart attack, is that God's plan? Are they just supposed to die? Or do we help them with medical procedures? That's how I felt about IVF, I had no guilt about it. But now that I have 8 frozen embryos, things are different. On one hand, I'm so happy that we have so many frozen, in case it doesn't work, because I never want to go through the IVF experience ever again, but I am now wondering what we are going to do if this cycle does work, because obviously we are not having 10 children. We have totally decided against donating them to research, my husband was completely against that. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens.
It's been very hard on me to go to school and teach religion everyday, because I feel like I am a hypocrite, going against what the catholic church believes is right.

[ejchrusch]

Alison, I understand where you're coming from. My mom used to teach in the catholic system and we talked about that teacher in the states who got fired. A teacher at my mom's school went through ivf a few years ago and no one said anything bad about it. They had gone to a priest beforehand and he said that the crucial aspect was whether they respected life and that as long as they did that (i.e. didn't throw any of their embryos away), they would be okay.

I remember wanting to find other catholics who had gone through this to kind of talk these things through and all I found was an on-line chat group that was uber-catholic. It was alright at first, but it was really strict. At one point I had a question involving our IUI procedure, and I got chastised by the monitor for bringing up IUI because "it really upsets some people." Well, I don't have the martyr-personality where I'm just going to live with this suffering for the glory of God, or whatever. I understand that I don't have a right to have a baby, but I'm going to do what's within my power to see if it's possible for me and dh.

Great discusssion
Well dh and I just had this conversation today as were both catholic. My family more practicing than his. Church every sunday and as my parents age they have become church groupies. As my mother always tells me Catholism isn't just a religion is part of our culture. We discussed whether to donate to research, extra and dh is against that. Being catholic I agree It is hard because the whole bring up your kids in a church, and gods will for your life drives me nuts. Why would this wonderful god put couples through this. I have pondered this for months and do not believe that god would disagree with people bringing babies into the world in what ever manner they got there. Our journey is unique, but not in my opinion not gods plan.
I have the hardest time with my mother because I have recently discussed with her that incident in the news about the catholic school teacher being fired and informed her to not let people know what is going on as some catholics( basically everyone around her) do not agree with this kind of stuff. Her response oh that was probably just one priest who believes that and fired her,don't worry your priest wont care. Ah!! I hear everyday from her about having faith. And I just lost it on her the other month about how infertility isn't caused by not having faith. I am sure almost every infertile couple probably has faith in one form or another or they wouldn't be going through this kind of procedure. Sometimes though to cope I have to remember reality. Ivf is part of my journey in life, for some reason god put this in my lap and if one day ivf doesn't work for us then that was his plan too. I think the catholic guilt is the real bummer though. The second guessing maybe if you were skinny went to church more, didn't do this or that, maybe always maybe.
Recently I spoke with my dh aunt who I know went through this but will not say it out loud if that makes sense. So I decided to let her know that were going through this soon. She pretended that she was new to all this except for the fact that it took her 10 years to get pregnant in a itialian family. Ouch. She said something that almost made me cry. She told me her mother in law would make food for everyone else in the family but always something special for her. She told me she never said anything about it. as this was litterly the only thing she said to me besides I am sure more people in the family have gone through stuff like this but they dont talk about it.
I hate it when my mother talks about praying for me because I need it because my sister has kids but i don't. Like this makes me so different from her in terms of needig prayer. I agree there is a core faith in everyone that makes people believe they can accomplish what they believe. As evidenced by what I said about my mother I have a hard time with the idea of strict and not strict ideas. It applies to some and not others. changing the rules to adapt is long overdue. I am rambling now. thanks this thread helped me today
susanc

[ejchrusch]

I actually don't think my dad understands what exactly ivf is. He just wants us to have a baby. Susan, when you talk about your mom praying for you...well my dad has ended every conversation for the past two years with, "You know we're praying for you and don't worry things will work out." Most of my family has been really supportive, which is kind of weird because they're all catholic. I think that when you know someone who's going through IF, it's a lot harder to see things so black and white.

[jaan]

ejchrusch-So in islam someone who is adopted can't take your family name? That's interesting I wonder how the kids feel about it, what last name do they use? I think it's a begining if you can do ivf in Pakistan it hasen't been that long in Canada. I see your point on research.

Alison-Welcome. I can't believe a teacher got fired wow I think that diocese must be very strict. You are not a hypocrite for teaching religion, for some they must teach about evolution even if they don't believe in it, as far as I know it's part of the science curiculum. Teaching doesen't mean you agree with everything you teach, there are things as nurses we must do but don't agree with, I have cared for women who have had abortions even though I don't agree with them but it's not for me to judge, my job is to care for them like I would anyone else & I do I don't treat them differently even when it may be their 3rd abortion. Sorry to ramble my point is I'm sure your a wonderfull teacher & decisions you make are between you,dh & God, go with your heart.

Susan-For me it was the opposite I don't think my mom really understood what was going on but my dad did. They drove me to a couple of u/s checks in the city, that was an ordeal in itself. I agree it's much harder to see things black & white when it's happening so close to home. There is this women who belongs to dh's church and she always seen things black & white & was very critical of others children etc & a strict catholic, well that soon changed when her teenage dd came home pg, things weren't so black & white after that not that I wish ill on anyone but it's so much easier to sit back & judge others instead of being compasionate & lending a hand. I too am guilty of judging people but I am becoming more aware of it now & trying to stop.

I am not catholic & I have not been baptised I was dedicated in the salvation army, my mother won't be too happy that I want to become catholic but this is why the church does dedications so when you are an adult you can decide to be baptised. My boys are catholic & so is dh & his family so I'm on the fence right now, what is stopping me is I don't believe in the saints & can't bow to them or pray to them I think it's wrong to pray to anyone other than God or Jesus so I'm not sure what I will do.

For anyone who is catholic tell me what the saints mean in the church, so far when I've been in church they don't pray to them or really mention them so maybe it's not that big of deal, any advice?

[ejchrusch]

jaan - I think it was hopeful123 who made the comments about islam. I'm catholic and not too familiar at all with what islam says about adoption or IF or anything.

As for your question about saints, I guess the easiest way to explain it is that saints are people who were especially faithful and demonstrated the qualities of Jesus here on earth. To be a saint you either have to be martyred for the faith or have performed two miracles here on earth (I think). That's a really simple way of putting it. Most saints have "causes" and you usually pray to the saints for specific intercessions that have to do with those causes. For example, St. Anthony is the patron saint of lost things, so in our house whenever someone lost something we would pray to St. Anthony. St. Christopher is the patron saint of travel, so my sister got her dh, who is a trucker, a medallion of St. Christopher for him to hang in his truck.

It's usually an individual thing. Each saint has a feast day in the Church, but the church doesn't celebrate them so much anymore. At Easter there is a litany of the saints that is prayed by everyone, but that's all I can remember.

I don't know if this helped

[jaan]

Sorry about that your right it was hopefull

Thanks for the info on the saints as long as I don't have to pray or kneel to them I could be catholic, I'm a christian it's just the saint thing that has me doubting becoming catholic. I should google it.

Hi

I am a Catholic and struggled with this issue until I read the poem below and understood why. My husband and I argued all the time as I felt he just did not get it and I blamed God for giving me this crappy life experience. I can now say that I am 6 months pregnant, (I have endo and blocked tubes, conceived through IVf) and get this, I am due on Jesus' B-day! Isn't that weird. I really hope this helps. I pray harder now than I ever did, and instead of for help I pray to him, thanking him for all the eye opening expierences he has given me! Read below and you will understand, God Bless!

"What do I think God meant when he gave me infertility?

"I think he meant for my husband and I to grow closer, become stronger, love
deeper. I think God meant for us to find the fortitude within ourselves to
get up every time infertility knocks us down. I think God meant for our
medical community to discover medicines, invent medical equipment, create
procedures and protocols. I think God meant for us to find a cure for
infertility.

"No, God never meant for me not to have children. That's not my destiny;
that's just a fork in the road I'm on. I've been placed on the road less
traveled, and, like it or not, I'm a better person for it. Clearly, God
meant for me to develop more compassion, deeper courage, and greater inner
strength on this journey to resolution, and I haven't let him down.

"Frankly, if the truth be known, I think God has singled me out for a
special treatment. I think God meant for me to build a thirst for a
child so strong and so deep that when that baby is finally placed in my
arms, it will be the longest, coolest, most refreshing drink I've ever
known.

"While I would never choose infertility, I can not deny that a fertile woman
could never know the joy that awaits me. Yes, one way or another, I will
have a baby of my own. And the next time someone wants to offer me
unsolicited advice I'll say, "Don't tell me what God meant when he handed me
infertility. I already know."

Hello girls,

I am a born again christian - member of a Pentecostal Church. I do have faith but since this IVF experience began I have been having difficulty going to church. For one, I don't want the people who know me to feel sorry for me - tell me what God's will is etc.. Secondly, I don't want the people who don't know me & do not approve of IVF - stem cell research etc, to chastise me or look down on me and my DH - Lastly I just cannot sit through a service without crying - especially when they do the baby dedications. I have been feeling really guilty about this & find this thread to be especially helpful. Thank you to RD1 for the above poem - I will make it my prayer & continue to praise a good and loving lord.

Miracles are all around us....
God Bless you all

Heidi08

[jaan]

rd1-Thanks for the poem that is really nice & congrtulations on your pg

Heidi-I understand not going to church especially with the baby dedications, just because you don't attend doesen't mean you don't have your faith, I believe God hears us no matter where we are You have the right to avoid situations that are painfull & hurtfull, I too avoided people & places etc. I ended up leaving my job on Pediatrics because I couldn't "handle" it anymore. Nobody needs to hear "it's God's will" you have your own thoughts & opinions & I believe decisions that you make are not the churches business, I would never ask for the churches permission to do ivf these decisions are between dh,myself & God. We all hear God's will in our own way & a priest can't tell us what is right & wrong. Nobody can look at my boys & say "they shouldn't be" they are here & that's god's will. Ok I'm stepping off my soap box, sorry. I wish you the best with your upcoming cycle

Jaan, Thank you so much for your kind words & support.

~Heidi08

[Natiko]

Hi everyone,

I've been reading this topic ever since Jaan started it. I've always wanted to know how IF, IVF and ART has changed peoples outlooks, opinions and perspectives on (their) religion.

I have basically no religious faith at all. I am, what some may call, Atheist or 'non-theist'. I prefer to call myself a 'free-thinker' . I'm not going to preach my beliefs on anyone here nor will I criticize anyone for their beliefs, I'm not like that. To each his own. I'm this way due to my past, I was actually raised (lightly) Catholic.

But, the last paragraph that Jaan wrote, really upset me. It didn't affect me personally, but I felt for those who must hide from what they were taught to believe and not to be yourself around everyone in their church for fear of being judged. If not judged by the people, then judged by God in the end. I can't imagine the heaviness that you carry around trying to have others believe you are someone else. Please don't get me wrong, I just feel so sad that this is what the church has made you feel is 'right' when in your heart, you KNOW it's wrong. How can it be wrong to want something so bad it hurts?

As Jaan said, NO ONE can tell her that her boys weren't meant to be here. But some may and that, in itself, is horrible. EVERYONE of us deserves a child no matter HOW we conceived them.

I, unlike some of you, never had to make the decision of what to do wiht my embryos - I never had any. But my dh and I did talk about what we'd do if we were to have them, as that was one of the questions on our agreement document before we proceeded with IVF. Dh and I both agreed to let our embryos go to research. As I said, I never had to make that decision and I can't say whether I would have stayed with that decision had my outcome been different.

I agree with stem cell research. I have to. I've had inlaws with diabetes, I've had a mother with cancer 4 times, I've had a cousin who died of Sickle cell anemia and another cousin who died of a brain disease when he was 4 weeks old (don't know what it was). I've had a step son with Leukemia who died at the age of 11 and plenty of other illnesses and diseases in my family that ONLY have the possibility of cure through research alone. I think stem cell is just the beginning. Ok ok... we're not talking research here, I got waaaay off topic, sorry.

Anyhow, it was after reading Jaan's last post, that I thought I'd copy and paste something for some of you, who are confused and feeling guilty, to read. It's written by a Catholic man, not an Atheist. Being so, you may read it in a different light, written by a believer of God. I thought it was very well written and reminded me of some of your struggles, I hope that you can find it in your strength to be YOU, and KNOW that the church isn't always right, it DOES make mistakes. Against IVF may be one of them. So let you heart rest and do what you will.

Here's the copy and paste...
*************************************

Have we learned nothing from the past?



Remember the Church’s law against dissection, which stopped internal medicine’s development for about three hundred years. How many people died needlessly because of that ban? That was the church in action, a religious decree, enforced by several Popes.



One of these, Bonifacio VIII, was famous for imprisoning the previous Pope in a narrow cell until he died. As one of the excommunicable sins is violence against the Pope, did not that mean that the allegedly infallible Bonifacio had in fact done something wrong?



Can anyone seriously deny that mistakes have been made by the Church?



In the days when priests were the ultimate political power, they carried whips with them, so they could beat conveniently. They also had people tortured and/or killed, like Joan of Arc, whom they ordered burned to death.



When “witches” were slaughtered (perhaps by the millions, we are not sure of the numbers even now) was that not a mistake?



When cats were killed (as familiars of witches) rats multiplied, and disease spread.



Bathing was considered a sin because it washed away baptism.



Vaccination was considered against religion, and people died of small pox.



The church let rich criminals buy their way out of punishment, (it was called indulgence buying, and was a reason the Protestant church broke away) was that not an error?



When Pope Pius XII stayed silent about the Holocaust raging around him before and during World War II, saying nothing while millions of people were incarcerated, tortured, and incinerated by the Nazis, that too was a mistake.



And now, for the Church to turn its back on the suffering of hundreds of millions?



To condemn women to hell for donating embryos from IVF clinics, due to be trashed anyway?



To excommunicate scientists, politicians and doctors trying to cure Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s, cancer, paralysis, diabetes and more?



That is backwards; the Church is supposed to protect people, to ease their misery, not use vast political power to try and block our hopes for cure.



I urge the Pope to think carefully before committing the Church to such a policy.



Blocking research which might save lives is more than a colossal mistake; it would be a crime against humanity.

[ejchrusch]

Thanks Natiko. I really appreciated that poem/essay.

Sometimes I think about a parable I heard about a man in house that's flooding. He hears the news reports telling him to evacuate, but he says, "God will save me" and stays put. The water starts entering the house and he climbs onto the roof. Some people pass by in a canoe and tell him to get in so he can get to safety. He says "No, God will save me." Finally a helicopter is flying overhead rescuing people and they drop a rope ladder and tell him to climb to safety. Again, he says, "No. God will save me." Eventually the man drowns.

When he gets to heaven, he asks, "God why didn't you save me?" God says, "I gave you three ways to get out. What more did you want?"

I personally don't think I could donate my embryos to research, but I do think that these scientists' intelligence is a gift from God. How many people pray for a cure for Parkinsons, or whatever and here is a possibility and these same people say, "No, we don't want that cure." What they're waiting for, I don't know.
Same with infertility, people pray and pray that they will have a child, yet they won't consider all of the alternatives available to them. All they expect are miracles, not realizing that every child, really, is a miracle.

[Natiko]

Very, very well said

[jaan]

Shawn- Thanks for those tidbits, I know the church is/was very corupt & the money that flowed from others pain is really sickening. For me the way I look at is, I don't have faith in the church my faith is in God. The church is made up of Men who will be judged just like everyone else however, the church has done many wonderfull things too, feeding the poor, praying for the sick & raising money for different causes.

ejschrusch-That was a great story & so true.

I think when you believe life begins decides how you feel about stem cell. From what I have read stem cells don't have to from embryos they can use different tissues, so if this is true, why are they using embryos? Someone correct me if I"m wrong. I believe life begins with fertilization so I could never donate embryos that had no chance at a life.

gotta run, all thoughts & opinions welcomed!

I also believe life begins at fertilization but I am torn about what we will do considering all the good that can come from the research done on stem cells/embryos. I asked my clinic about having my embryos adopted by a couple who needs them & I was told it was not an option from Hamilton. I think however it can be done out of Toronto & this will most likely be the path we choose. Does anyone have any info on this?

~Heidi08

[jaan]

Heidi I don't have any info sorry. I don't want you to think that I think it's wrong to donate to research because I don't think that, I just know for myself I couldn't.

When me & dh first started ttc and then a month prior to our ectopic when af arrived I had a bit of a meltdown, I was so upset every month my cycles going from 28-34days & the stress of thinking "this is it" convincing myself I was pg when it was just af symptoms, it was awefull, I know everyone here can understand and relate, but I had no-one close to me that could relate, my bf was fertile myrtle & dh's family is so big that everywhere we went there was pg people & babies, all of the couples around us were on pg #2 it was heartbreaking. So I had my meltdown with God & I do feel ashamed of the things I said because I believe in God so I told God exactly what I thought of him it really wasen't pretty & I said some truly horrible things as I & yelled. I never thought I don't believe but I did think I am turning my back on you and I'm finished with my religion I truly felt alone & didn't care at that moment if I died & where I went. It was after that right after that, I got pg with my ectopic and was diagnosed with tubal factor I believed it was a sign from God even though I was heartbroken because we had to lose our baby the silver lining was I knew we could conceive. Since then I have appologised over & over for the aweful things I had said but I beleive God did hear me & answered me even though it brought us more heartache. This is my story I thought I would share, because I don't think I'm the only one who has had these feelings, although I may be alone in my verbal response to those feelings.

[ejchrusch]

Heidi, Foothills in Calgary also has an embryo donation program. Dh and I had to specify what we wanted done with the embryos if we both died or split up and we said we wanted to donate them to a couple who couldn't have their own embryos. But when I was re-reading the info about their embryo donation program, it says that ICSI'd embryos aren't eligible. So now I don't know what we're going to do.

Jaan, I've definitely had my days where I thought God abandoned me. I mean, here I was, being the "good" girl, going to Church every Sunday, volunteering at Church, etc. and yet somehow God didn't think I was good enough to be a mother (at least that's what I thought). I still struggle with it, but I know I have to look at the big picture.

Way back when I didn't consider the reality of not being able to conceive easily, I would flippantly say that if I couldn't have kids I would go do volunteer work in Africa. Then when we couldn't have kids, I thought, "God, I really don't want to go to Africa yet." I know it's really silly, but deep down sometimes I think that maybe I am supposed to go to Africa (or Asia or wherever). It's hard when you're trying to figure out what your life is supposed to be, especially when it seems like what you want and what "the world" wants are two different things.

This is a fascinating thread!

One thing that came to mind when I read the postings about how strict the Catholic church was on issues such as pregnancy/conception etc - actually, the catholic church itself has held numerous positions on this issue throughout history. Don't quote me on the exact time (I think it was around the middle ages or Rennaissance period) - there was a time when church thinking was that a fetus is not a person until six weeks of development when it received a 'soul' and became human, so to speak. Until that time it was virtually 'nothing'. The concept of when life begins was the topic of considerable scholarly and lively discourse for many centuries. This contrasts starkly with the sometimes rigid views of the Catholic church today. Which is too bad.

I do believe in God, but have my problems with organized religion. I feel most religious (spiritual) when I am outside enjoying nature, or listening to a particularly beautiful piece of music. And sometimes I feel that way in church when I hear an insightful sermon, or just enjoy the medidative atmosphere. It is a really individual experience I think, and for me the point is that I feel a part of something bigger than myself. I am not a fatalist to the point of the guy in the story who had three chances to get out and was waiting for some kind of divine intervention (that was a great story by the way). But I do think that at the end of the day, what I do and what happens are all part of a bigger picture. This gives me great comfort, although I do not always like the outcomes at the time (because I really, really wished for something else).