Jump to content



Photo
- - - - -

Time sensitive: benefits with pre and post fet acupuncture

acupuncture fet transfer pre and post transfer acu

  • Please log in to reply
7 replies to this topic

#1 TryingForOur2ndChild

TryingForOur2ndChild
  • Global 100+
  • 785 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London, ON
  • Dx:Male Factor

Posted 10 March 2017 - 10:08 AM

I have an upcoming fet in two day and just wanting to know what the major benefits are with having pre AND post transfer acupuncture treatment. I've only ever done post but mainly I've done it because I just always have so why jinx it. I do see my acupuncturist 1-2 times weekly during frozen transfers but seeing as my transfers are from natural cycles my acupuncturist has stated that evidence shows that fet's don't require post transfer acupuncture because of the lack of medications. I've only ever seen this one acupuncturist and I do completely trust her, but I have the opportunity to see the clinics naturopath that will come in and do a pre/post treatment but it's definitely not cheap... is it worth it or does the evidence actually show that it doesn't do much for a natural cycle fet? Any information would be appreciated. TIA :)


See full journey details on my profile:

 

About Us:

​Trying to conceive since 2013 (male factor); Me: 39 yrs old; DH: 37 yrs old; low testosterone; very low sperm count; on Clomid for testosterone

 

~ 2014 ~ IVF Cycle #1:

 

Cycle Info:

- Antagonist protocol

- Retrieval: 22 eggs retrieved; 8 injected (ICSI); 6 fertilized; 4 embryos divided - 2 embryos are 4 cell grade 1, 1 embryo is 5 cell grade 2, and 1 embryo is 8 cell grade 2

 

FET #1 - medicated cycle (2014)

- transferred two day-3s: one 10 cell grade 1 and one 12 cell grade 2; Beta: BFN; approved to do a natural FET next time

 

FET #2 - Non-medicated cycle (2014)

- added Teva-Doxycycline 100mg (antibiotic) started one day before procedure: 1 tab 2xdaily until finished) 

- transferred two day-3 embies (1 is 10 cell grade 2 and 1 is 12 cell grade 2); took 1 tab of Apo-Diazepam (valium) 5mg 45mins before FET        

​- HPT = th_abfp.gifbanana.gifbanana.gifth_abfp.gif  Welcomed our little babygirl.gif in summer of 2015

 

~ 2016/17IVF Cycle #2: Project Sibling

 

Cycle Info:

Oct. 29: Retrieval - 23 eggs retrieved; will be a freeze all cycle

Nov. 2: Dostinex 0.5mg every other day for a total of 8 days has started to alleviate OHSS 

Nov. 4: Day 6 report: 5 embryos on ice... yay! 4 day-5s (4AA and 3 are 4BC quality) and 1 day-6 (5BC quality)

 

FET #1 - Non-medicated cycle (2017)

Feb. 6: start Teva-Doxycycline antibiotic100mg one day before procedure
Feb. 7: scheduled transfer at 11:45am; 1 tab of Apo-Diazepam (valium) 5mg taken 45mins before transfer; transfer of one 4AA blast

Feb.20: BETA - BFN; approved to go right into another natural FET with no cycle in between

 

FET #2 - Non-medicated cycle (2017)

Feb.24: CD3 - u/s and b/w= nothing said about lining; E2 19, LH 4.4 IU/L, FSH 6.6 IU/L, Prolactin 8.1 Ng/mL, TSH 2.22 IU/L, Progesterone 1.6 nmol/L, Glucose 4.1 - I requested (norm is 3.6-7.7); back on CD15; acupuncture 2x weekly until fet to try and bring on LH surge sooner than CD17.

Mar.6: OPK positive in the evening so looks like I will be going into the clinic tomorrow

Mar.7: CD14 - u/s and b/w= 11mm triple lining; E2 712, LH 32 IU/L

Mar.8: CD15 - b/w= confirmed LH surge was yesterday; E2 343, LH 8.12 IU/L; start Endometrin 3x/daily

Mar.11: start Doxycycline antibiotic 100mg (8 pills total) one day before procedure: 1 tab 2xdaily until finished

Mar.12: scheduled transfer at 10am of one 4BA blast; 1 tab of Apo-Diazepam (valium) 5mg taken 45mins before transfer

Mar.23: HPT = th_abfp.gifbanana.gifbanana.gifth_abfp.gif

​Mar.25: Beta #1= 788 hcg, Progesterone 107 nmol/L; RE happy with results so skipping beta #2 and going right to u/s

​Apr.8: First u/s scheduled (will be almost 7 wks)

 

 

 

 

 


#2 Harlo17

Harlo17
  • Just Hatched
  • 13 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Dx:Unexplained
  • My Clinic:Olive Fertility

Posted 10 March 2017 - 02:34 PM

I think acupuncture is one of those things that there isn't a ton of evidence behind to whether it works in ivf or in general. I think you will see both sides. You will hear from women who had success when doing acupuncture that will swear by it and then you will hear from women like me who didn't so wouldn't do it again. With my successful cycle I had literally given up and tried nothing. I cancelled all my acupuncture and just slept. Maybe that had something to do with it. I did the transfer went home and went right to bed for 2 days.

 

Good luck!


  • TryingForOur2ndChild likes this

Me 29 Hubby 32

TTC Since October 2013

1 natural conception miscarriage Nov 2014 at 10 weeks 8388.gif

3 IUI's -  th_abfn.gif

3 IVF Retrievals

1 Fresh Transfer th_abfn.gif

1 Frozen Transfer th_abfp.gif Finally success with a Frozen Mosaic Embryo! Due May 2017 babyboy.gif


#3 north

north
  • Global 100+
  • 602 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Dx:N/A

Posted 10 March 2017 - 03:28 PM

Actually doing acu immediately pre transfer and immediately post transfer DOES have some positive benefit as the research bears out. Check out Yinstill acupuncture in Vancouver's website. You'll find articles and research there.
  • TryingForOur2ndChild, amp77 and Murried like this

#4 amp77

amp77
  • 1000+
  • 2,644 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Dx:Unexplained
  • My Clinic:OFC

Posted 10 March 2017 - 05:50 PM

We did before and after for our successful fresh transfer and our natural FET
  • TryingForOur2ndChild likes this

Age 39, DH 43 in Oct.

TTC on and off since 2007 before our second IVF, in 2014, brought us our beautiful son.

 

FET #1 -  Sept 2016

Day 1 - Sept. 9

Monitoring - Sept. 18-22

Lining Check - Sept. 22 (11.3 mm)

Transferred 5B-BB Sept. 25 - BFP!!!  HCG 890 @ 12dp5dt and Progesterone 95.
Midwife appointment Sept. 19 and first ultrasound Nov. 4
3 Frosties left

 

<a href="https://lilypie.com/"><img src="https://lbdf.lilypie.com/9GKrm4.png" width="400" height="80" border="0" alt="Lilypie Pregnancy tickers" /></a>

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Seems like forever ago...

 

Age 37, DH 40.

TTC on and off since 2007

Unexplained Infertility

 

IVF #1 - April 2014 - BFN - no frosties

 

IVF #2 - July 2014 - BFP - 5B-AB and 4 frosties (5B-BB, 2x4B-BB and 3B-BB)

Apr. 13, 2015 - Daniel Erik was born at 5:05 am, weight 8 lbs, 13 oz, and 22" long.  He is perfect in every way.

 

 


#5 Ola1981

Ola1981
  • Cyclebase
  • 922 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Saskatoon
  • Interests:Reading, cooking, golf, knitting
  • Dx:Male Factor
  • My Clinic:Aurora Reproductive Care Saskatoon

Posted 10 March 2017 - 10:08 PM

My acupuncturist said that pre is beneficial with frozen transfers but not post, whereas with fresh transfers she does both.
  • TryingForOur2ndChild likes this
See about me for details of our journey to become parents to 2 beautiful children

#6 Dr. Brown FABORM

Dr. Brown FABORM
  • Advisor
  • 340 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:British Columbia
  • Dx:N/A
  • My Clinic:Acubalance

Posted 11 March 2017 - 02:00 PM

HI  TryingForOur2ndChild

 

The research show that having acupuncture regularly for 3 cycles leading up to a FET increases live births.

 

So I think you are good with your 2/week sessions and can skip the transfer day trx if you like.  If you like the extra support and want to add a little extra rest and relaxation then go fort he acupuncture.   And I have seen studies for pre & post and just pre transfer but not for just post transfer.   The reason acupuncture post transfer can be beneficial  is to help calm an irritable uterus caused by the catheter during transfer.  Does not happen often but it can on a natural (non medicated) FET

 

I am going to copy and paste my response to Hilary here about how often to go for acupuncture since it is related.

 

Fresh, frozen or donor, in my opinion acupuncture leading up to transfer (2/week for a few cycles) is more beneficial tan just transfer-day transfer. 

 

Lorne

 

Hi Hilary

 

There are so many options available to us that can optimize our our fertility and support an IVF cycle.

 

I was reminded, after reading The Telomere Effect, how important diet, lifestyle, coping with stress and healthy social relationships are in allowing our cells (including egg and sperm cells) to flourish.    Chinese medicine is not just acupuncture but also diet, lifestyle (rest, sleep, exercise), stress reduction and herbs.  I know the question is about acupuncture but I want to remind all the readers how important your daily activities (diet, lifestyle, stress, relationships) can impact your fertility potential.

 

I want to separate the question from how much you can afford to how much has been shown to be beneficial.  I will leave it to each of you to decide how much you want to spend on IVF, herbs, acupuncture, groceries, etc and stay focused on what works.  Then you can decide if the value id there and if you can afford to use it or not.

 

This question  comes at a good timing as I am leaving next week to teach at a conference in Tel Aviv on acupuncture protocols to optimize fertility whether TTC naturally or with IVF.  So the current research is at top of mind right now.  Plus I will share below some new research I came across on using cold laser (LLLT) for "severe infertility"  during the cycles (not just on transfer day) and which we are fortunate to offer at Acubalance because we happen to own 3 of these lasers that can

 

How many times for acupuncture?

 

Acupuncture is dosage dependent.  The research indicates receiving acupuncture over 3 cycles is most beneficial.   The IVF studies (fresh and frozen) show a higher live birth rate when done 9-12 session before transfer.    Lee Hullender Rubin's retrospective study showed an increase in the odds of a live birth when a whole systems traditional Chinese medicine approach (WSTCM) was followed compared to acupuncture only on transfer day or IVF only (no acupuncture). 

 

WSTCM included a min of 12 acupuncture visits PLUS duet and or supplements and or herbs and or mind body.   You may notice this sounds a lot like what I described above as the definition of Chinese medicine.  More importantly,  Hullender-Rubin's study is how most practitioners practice which makes it valuable.  Many studies just look at the acupuncture.   Her study looked at who acupuncture is practiced and it showed a significant increase in the odds ratio of a live birth.

 

How acupuncture helps

 

 
1.Increases blood flow to reproductive system
Ovaries
Uterine lining
2.Reducing stress
3.Regulate hormones
4.Improves sperm quality and quantity
5.Increases live birth rates for ART
(IVF/FET/Donor egg cycles)

 

 

Now here is some exciting information that is new for me.  At Acubalance we have a cold laser that we use on transfer day.  An abstract was published showing a 15% increase in implantation.  This part is not new as we have been offering this since 2009.  During my preparation for mt Te l Aviv talk I came across some literature and research in using the laser to treat severe infertility.   One study demonstrated a 22% pregnancy rate and 50% live birth rate in this challenging population of 'severe infertility'.  The study protocol was repeated  but with a stronger laser and they also applied the laser in one more treatment area in addition to the original study and saw 66% success rate.    I will be using my laser more often in clinic now.   One note on lasers.  They are not all created equal.  Power and wave length matter.   My laser is $18,000.  My colleague consulted with this week as she wanted to use her $300 laser on her infertility patients.   Based on the power she would need to hold the laser for at least 30 minutes on each point.  Not practical or going to happen as the protocol in study one would take her over 3 hours per patient and over a day in a study two with her laser.  

 

If you want to reach your peak fertility potential and use acupuncture to increase your chances of success for  a healthy baby then I suggest the following.

 

  • Follow a fertility diet - anti-inflammatory/low glycemic whole foods diet  - http://acubalance.ca...-fertility-diet
  • If your practitioner is skilled in Chinese herbs take them
  • practice mind body stress reduction techniques
  • Work on healthy social relationships (family, friends, neighbors and work)
  • acupuncture  2/week for 3 months.
  • If they have a laser (powerful enough to provide you the Joules in under an hour) then ask for it.   We are now using it at Acubalance. 
  • Read book Telomere Effect   (It validates what Chinese medicine documented 2500 years about diet and lifestyle and only now validated by modern science.
  • Read http://acupuncturepr...ve-egg-quality/
  • watch 5 minute video on Acubalance egg quality page  - http://acubalance.ca...ent/egg-quality

 

What if you are just starting stimulation drugs or your retrieval transfer is less then 3 months away?

 

Do what you can.  Acupuncture alone is not the answer. You also need diet, lifestyle etc.   Look at this way when thinking about how much acupuncture.  If you found out you had an exam in 2 weeks do you study hard and try to pass and even ace the exam or do you choose not to study and take the exam and hope for the best?   Studying 2-3 times week for 3 months  usually will get you a better grade than cramming 2 weeks before.  But cramming 2 weeks before is better than not doing an exam prep at all.  So if you are reading this and you have an IVF coming up soon and you want acupuncture then see if you can go 2-3 per week until retrieval/transfer. 

 

In summary acupuncture, Chinese herbs and LLLT Cold laser can help by

  • Increase blood supply (oxygen and nutrients) to the follicles with electro acupuncture
  • Increase mitochondrial ATP output with certain Chinese herbs and low level laser light
  • Enhance antioxidant defences with certain Chinese herbs and low level laser light.

 

And 2Brides.....If you have a fear of needles.... there is always cold laser instead of needles.   At Acubalance we now use both but we have some patients who do not like needles and just get the laser.

 

 

Good luck everyone.  I wish you were all in Vancouver so m and my team could offer you more support.


  • 2Brides, TryingForOur2ndChild and Wen1218 like this
Lorne Brown B.Sc.,CA, Dr.TCM, FABORM, CHt
Doctor of Traditional Chinese Medicine and Clinical Hypnotherapist
Founder and Clinical Director Acubalance Wellness Centre (British Columbia)
www.acubalance.ca
www.ifsymposium.com
604-678-8600

#7 TryingForOur2ndChild

TryingForOur2ndChild
  • Global 100+
  • 785 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London, ON
  • Dx:Male Factor

Posted 11 March 2017 - 02:18 PM

Thank you to everyone that responded... and especially to Dr. Brown.. I really appreicate it! :)

 

Dr. Brown - I trust my fertility acupuncturist whole heartedly and when I saw her yesterday for a treatment and much like what you said, she mentioned that it was unnecessary to have acu on the day of my fet because I have been doing a minimum of 1 treatment a week but during my fet cycle it's been 2xweekly as she was really working on getting me to surge naturally a bit sooner than my norm (which did work as I surged 3 days earlier than my norm and my cycles have always been like clockwork). She also mentioned that because of all the acu I have been doing over the past months that is what is most beneficial but if I decided to do pre/post acu it certainly wouldn't hurt me. To calm the uterus muscles I am taking a dose of valium before my procedure which I have found in the past to be very helpful. So I will stick with waiting until the next day until I can see my acupuncturist instead. It's never easy making all these decisions when it feels like so much might be riding on the decisions we make, but knowing there are supporters and professionals on this forum help us through the moments when our mind might kick into high gear due to the stressful decisions has made more impact on our lives in a positive way than you will possibly ever know... so thanks! :)


  • Hilary likes this

See full journey details on my profile:

 

About Us:

​Trying to conceive since 2013 (male factor); Me: 39 yrs old; DH: 37 yrs old; low testosterone; very low sperm count; on Clomid for testosterone

 

~ 2014 ~ IVF Cycle #1:

 

Cycle Info:

- Antagonist protocol

- Retrieval: 22 eggs retrieved; 8 injected (ICSI); 6 fertilized; 4 embryos divided - 2 embryos are 4 cell grade 1, 1 embryo is 5 cell grade 2, and 1 embryo is 8 cell grade 2

 

FET #1 - medicated cycle (2014)

- transferred two day-3s: one 10 cell grade 1 and one 12 cell grade 2; Beta: BFN; approved to do a natural FET next time

 

FET #2 - Non-medicated cycle (2014)

- added Teva-Doxycycline 100mg (antibiotic) started one day before procedure: 1 tab 2xdaily until finished) 

- transferred two day-3 embies (1 is 10 cell grade 2 and 1 is 12 cell grade 2); took 1 tab of Apo-Diazepam (valium) 5mg 45mins before FET        

​- HPT = th_abfp.gifbanana.gifbanana.gifth_abfp.gif  Welcomed our little babygirl.gif in summer of 2015

 

~ 2016/17IVF Cycle #2: Project Sibling

 

Cycle Info:

Oct. 29: Retrieval - 23 eggs retrieved; will be a freeze all cycle

Nov. 2: Dostinex 0.5mg every other day for a total of 8 days has started to alleviate OHSS 

Nov. 4: Day 6 report: 5 embryos on ice... yay! 4 day-5s (4AA and 3 are 4BC quality) and 1 day-6 (5BC quality)

 

FET #1 - Non-medicated cycle (2017)

Feb. 6: start Teva-Doxycycline antibiotic100mg one day before procedure
Feb. 7: scheduled transfer at 11:45am; 1 tab of Apo-Diazepam (valium) 5mg taken 45mins before transfer; transfer of one 4AA blast

Feb.20: BETA - BFN; approved to go right into another natural FET with no cycle in between

 

FET #2 - Non-medicated cycle (2017)

Feb.24: CD3 - u/s and b/w= nothing said about lining; E2 19, LH 4.4 IU/L, FSH 6.6 IU/L, Prolactin 8.1 Ng/mL, TSH 2.22 IU/L, Progesterone 1.6 nmol/L, Glucose 4.1 - I requested (norm is 3.6-7.7); back on CD15; acupuncture 2x weekly until fet to try and bring on LH surge sooner than CD17.

Mar.6: OPK positive in the evening so looks like I will be going into the clinic tomorrow

Mar.7: CD14 - u/s and b/w= 11mm triple lining; E2 712, LH 32 IU/L

Mar.8: CD15 - b/w= confirmed LH surge was yesterday; E2 343, LH 8.12 IU/L; start Endometrin 3x/daily

Mar.11: start Doxycycline antibiotic 100mg (8 pills total) one day before procedure: 1 tab 2xdaily until finished

Mar.12: scheduled transfer at 10am of one 4BA blast; 1 tab of Apo-Diazepam (valium) 5mg taken 45mins before transfer

Mar.23: HPT = th_abfp.gifbanana.gifbanana.gifth_abfp.gif

​Mar.25: Beta #1= 788 hcg, Progesterone 107 nmol/L; RE happy with results so skipping beta #2 and going right to u/s

​Apr.8: First u/s scheduled (will be almost 7 wks)

 

 

 

 

 


#8 Dr. Brown FABORM

Dr. Brown FABORM
  • Advisor
  • 340 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:British Columbia
  • Dx:N/A
  • My Clinic:Acubalance

Posted 12 March 2017 - 04:09 PM

Wishing you the best of luck with your cycle.   I agree with you about the monkey mind. My focus these days is on the mind body connection and offering stress reduction tools  because of the impact of stress on our body.    So feel free to ask me questions on the form.  I do my best to offer support.


  • TryingForOur2ndChild likes this
Lorne Brown B.Sc.,CA, Dr.TCM, FABORM, CHt
Doctor of Traditional Chinese Medicine and Clinical Hypnotherapist
Founder and Clinical Director Acubalance Wellness Centre (British Columbia)
www.acubalance.ca
www.ifsymposium.com
604-678-8600





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: acupuncture, fet, transfer, pre and post transfer acu