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Communication and organization issues?


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#1 Jiliana2

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 08:11 AM

I confess, I'm wondering just how organized this clinic is. I think I'm going back to McGill; I don't have time to waste quite frankly, at 41 years old.

Here's what happened to me:

Dr. Tan referred us to Montreal Reproductive Centre (MRC) when we met with him at McGill in December 2010. Fine enough. We went over to MRC, gave our info, and they did an ultrasound. I had to pay up front for the ultrasound (I'm an Ontario resident and I usually get my ultrasounds done in Ontario for cost purposes) and then the doctor (Dr. Mumcu Alper... pronounced "Harper" apparently) indicated that I had an endometrioma rather than (what I know to be) a functional cyst. He barely even met me for God's sake! I told him that it's been aspirated before. I've had lap surgery to remove it. It keeps growing back but it is fluid-filled and sometimes bursts on its own, which is, in fact, what I suspect happened in June this year.

Then I gave them my forms/questionnaire (which is exactly like McGill's by the way, just the logo is changed) and they're adamant that they need me to fill them out on THEIR papers. Okaaay... Dear Lord, the information is exactly the same! Why the insistence?

I did that though, because they insisted. Back and forth the e-mails went (with much prompting on my end, and at one point, after three e-mails and no response, I said, "Well, I'll just contact OFC in Ottawa and hopefully they'll have time to see me") and then it was, "Oh, we don't have this bloodwork from your husband." Of course you don't have it; it was at McGill and when the transfer of files happened, the files were sent directly to ME rather than to MRC. *slaps forehead* So I have everything in Ottawa, and they received nothing. Nice.

Then I wrote to them about my calendar; we were supposed to start birth control at the end of June 2011 with a retrieval/transfer date during the week of August 7-3. I was told, "Someone will get back to you in a day or two." I'm still waiting. My period has come and gone, and I'm halfway to my next one with nothing from this clinic.

Frankly, I think I'm done. Between the rumour of no licence for IVF and the lack of communcation and organization, I'm going back to McGill. If Dr. Tan won't see me there, I'll ask to see Dr. Holzer or another of the fine doctors at the hospital.

Unless... someone can convince me otherwise? Tell me I'm wrong. Tell me I'm reading this incorrectly?! Please? By all means, correct me and maybe, just maybe, it'd be worth sticking around for.

Cheers everyone.
5+ years TTC #1
Me: 40, PCOS, Hypothyroidism
Hubby: 42, vasectomy + failed reversal
Blog: The Hardest Quest
Tried: 25+ IUIs, 5 dIUIs (Puregon + Clomid), 2 chemical p/g; all Negativel

IVF #1
Retrieval: December 2 (8 retrieved, 6 mature, 6 fertilized)
Transfer: December 5 (3 8-celled embryos transferred)
Betas: December 18 (13dp3dt); POSITIVE @ 108, December 22 (17dp3dt); 355
Ultrasound: Vanishing Twin Syndrome (initially 2, now 1 embryo)
EDD: August 25, 2009
SHE'S HERE! Petite was born on August 27, 2009 and we're thrilled!

IVF #2
Back for round 2, for a sibling for Petite in 2011

#2 impatient

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 10:17 AM

I don't know anything about MRC, but I've been to four different clinics and EVERY time we had to fill out the forms again. It's standard practice.
Me: 41, DH: 44
TTC: since Jan, 2008 (age 34)

DH: Low morphology, low count. Me: Stage 2-3 endometriosis, non-functional fallopian tubes, small fibroids, low AFC, low poor responder ... anything else?

Jun 2008-Sep 2011 in a nutshell: One HSG, one very traumatic office hysteroscopy, one operative laparoscopy, three fresh IVF/ICSI cycles, one chemical, one early miscarriage, two tubal recanalizations, five IUIs (3 with Clomid).

May 2010 - Aug 2011 Attempted adoption application process through the BC MCFD. Aug 2011 Signed up with a private agency. On both waiting lists as of Apr 2012. Proposal through MCFD Jul 2012. Aug 2012 - Finally ... she's home and we're a family! : )

Adoption application #2 started Aug 2013. DD2 placed May 2014. Now waiting/hoping for adoption order.


"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
Thomas Edison

#3 Sandibeach

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 01:28 PM

Honestly based on your thread... leave this clinic. Whether you want to go to McGill or somewhere else... your gut is telling you to leave and I would. I think the problem is us Ontario residents are not getting the same level of service we were before free IVF in Quebec. We still pay, but the majority don't... and the clinics are overwhelmed, overworked and understaffed..so I'm not sure you'll find better in Quebec. I'm at MFC and LOVE them...but from my own experience and what others are saying, it's changed a lot since free IVF. The thought of going back to OFC is mute - I never want to go back there..so what are our other options?

All the best, but follow your gut and instinct... I worry that is there also a comprimise in service with ER, fertilization, ET, etc... who's to say it's just as good as before? I'm happy for the Quebec residents who get this free, but sad for us who still have to pay and get reduced service.
ME-39 DH-39
TTC 9 years
Unexplained infertility / mild male factor
6 Cycles Clomid - BFN
1 Laproscopy
2 IUI's- BFN
1st IVF - April 2008 - M/C @ 6 wks - OFC
1st Beta 25, 2nd Beta 87, 3rd Beta 257 BFP
2nd IVF - January 2y009 - No transfer - OFC
ER 23 eggs, 20 mature, 17 fertilized - TOTAL EPIC FAILURE - ALL 17 Embies arrested in development by Day 5
3rd IVF - June 2009 - This is it! - New Clinic - Montreal Fertility Centre
ER: June 8th - 16 fertilized eggs (no frosties)
ET: June 11th (2 excellent 8cell) & 13th (1 perfect blast)
HPT++++
June 24 1st Beta: 312 BFP
June 26 2nd Beta: 682
July 13 US: Singleton HB 130
July 25 US: HB 175 saw fetus moving
Aug 8 US: HB 165 all perfect
Aug 17 US: HB 157 all perfect
Oct 5 US: It's a BOY!!!!
Born March 3, 2010 - Julien Tristan
May 2011 - Natural BFP - Ectopic
Now trying the old fashion way - Bust
4th IVF - Dec 2011 - Back to OFC
Jan 16 - ER 11 eggs - 3 mature, 2 fertilized (OFC f**ked up again - triggered me too soon)
Jan 18 - Emergency Day 2 ET - 2 4 cell embryo's transferred
Feb 2 - Beta - BFN
5th & Final IVF - July 2012 - 3rd opinion - Hannam Fertility
Satelitte monitoring at OFC
ER - July 24
ET - July 27
Beta - Aug 10
Transferred 3 perfect embryos - 1 blast frozen
Aug 6 - HPT ++++++
Aug 8th Beta - 225 BFP
Aug 10th Beta - 445
Aug 27th US ~ 1 perfect little bean HB 120
Sept 10th US - all good HB 162
Due Date: April 16th, 2013 It's a GIRL!!!
Born April 9th, 2013 - Amelia Danica

#4 With Hope

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 05:10 PM

I would also like to hear more feedback on the Montreal Reproductive Centre. We are considering going there for IVF, but the bureaucratic confusion also concerns me, as does the increased number of patients at both MRP and McGill. I can put up with that if the technical care and success rate is good, but it is still a new centre so I am questioning this. The alternative is going to the Ottawa Fertility Centre.

#5 veypl

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 07:47 AM

I have just done a FET at McGill which was a nightmare administratively. I was hoping to hear things were better at dr. Tan's clinic (he has been giving me quite a sales pitch). I am feeling disappointed. Any more experiences there?

#6 With Hope

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 11:03 AM

Hi all! I am still new to this website, my previous posts were my first ones... I have decided to stay at the MRC and I am now going to try out an IVF there. I did an IUI there this summmer and it was not successful. I really liked the protocol which Dr. Tan had me on, however, when Dr. Alper did the procedure, it was extremely painful. Don't get me wrong, I really like all of the staff there and they are al extremely knowledgeable, but I surprised at the procedure. I have done several other IUI's and they were not pleasant, but they did not hurt. However, I am going to stay there because I really like Dr. Tan and think the world of him, also the wait times elsewhere are long and the bureacracy is less at the MRC (compared to McGill or elsewhere).

#7 chatvert

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 07:48 AM

I am now with this clinic doing IUI for some reason...They said Quebec Government said we have to start from IUI.
First one BFN, but going to try second one and after I might go for IVF.

Dr.Alper Mumcu is the one who did my IUI, too. and my case, it did not hurt at all.

it was little bit feel wired but that's it.

I searched his name on internet and found this website

www.mumcu.com

it is turkish but you can use translater with browser.

He was quiet and smiling ... very nice guy, but
I was not sure if he is good or not ... He is not as famous as Dr.Tan.
But I think now I am convinced that he is a very good Dr , too.

#8 PopsicleMTB

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 04:40 PM

We are about to do a IVF and sort of FET transfer at the centre this cycle. I know the centre has been having some "growing pains" but I really feel that the staff is making huge efforts to improve and be responsive.

#9 LotsOfHope

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Posted 02 October 2011 - 04:35 PM

I went to this clinic for a consultation with Dr. Tan last week and will be starting my first cycle in a few days. I must admit that I was hesitant after reading Jiliana's post, but I'm so glad I gave them a chance. Perhaps they've just made a lot of improvements since July, but I thought the clinic was great! There's some renovations being done in the other half of the building, but it didn't really bother me or my husband because all the staff were so kind and caring. In particular, Dr. Tan's wife, Grace, was in the waiting area and did an amazing job of making sure all of the patients were comfortable. The nursing staff were also quite wonderful, and Dr. Tan himself is a genius. His reputation clearly speaks for itself as he is literally WORLD-renowned, and the the fact of that matter is that he gets the best results of anybody in the business. It was also very easy to get an appointment, but I heard that it's likely going to change as more people hear about this new clinic.

At 40 years old, I'm cautiously optimistic that everything will work out, and I truly think I'm in the best possible hands with Dr. Tan. Hopefully other people will have the same experience as me.

#10 Alihada

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:31 PM

I've tried to do 3 IUIs (all cancelled) and I'm now in my first IVF there, after 2.5 yrs at McGill. At the MRC, first I was enraged with the evident disorganization, but then I learned not to wait for calls, to check with everyone that was supposed to have received a document or an info and to be blamed because someone didn't. Honestly, Jiliana's post didn't surprise me, but it is still not enough to make me come back to McGill. They are disorganized at the MRC, but at least they seem to care.

#11 CoralPink

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 07:48 PM

I've been looking into switching to this clinic and I'm trying to figure out who are the doctors there. Their website is not clear.

I read through all these posts and I come up with 3 names: Dr Tan, Dr Mok and Dr Dahan.

But who is Dr.Alper? or Mumcu? whatever his name??

Is he also an endocrinologist?

I followed the post of another member here and found his website from Turkey (www.mumcu.com)

I went to the College des Medecins du Quebec website to check for a listing of him and Dr Mumcu / Dr Alper is not listed as a licensed doctor in Quebec (all the other doctors are listed). So, why is he doing IUIs if he isn't licensed?? That worries me... 

Anyone have any feedback to help clarify this??



#12 ebonyglare

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  • My Clinic:MRC/McGill

Posted 18 May 2013 - 09:47 AM

MRC is really surprising me. I called to check if my blood work had been received. I talked to a receptionist, but she wasn't really sure if the right results were received, so she said she would have a nurse call me back to verify. The nurse ACTUALLY called and left a message. When I called back, she answered! Since I live out of town, she also confirmed that they could e-mail me my calendar if I do my u/s in Gatineau. I know this seems like such a silly thing to be happy about, but it's reassuring. Granted, once I actually start cycling, this could all turn into an epic disaster.

 

Please note: this is not another paid MRC endorsement. :P


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February 2014 - A pleasant surprise!

 

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#13 Lisa1981

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 08:13 AM

I have to second Ebony. Something similar happened to me. Dr Dahan had asked me to call the co-ordinator.. the co-ordinator actually called me. I also spoke to the nurse and got everything ready for when I'm ready to start. Seams like they are getting their things in order.

 

This is also not a paid advertisment, LOL (good one Ebony).


  • KennyandFooty likes this

Me: 33 - DH: 36

July 2012: referred to Ottawa fertility center
August 2012: Test results are back
High FSH, Low AFC (only 6)
Endo (duuuh) & DOR  (great....)

And may has well make it a trio...male factor (motility)

 

After 2 failed IUIs, 5 Failed IVF:

Trying on our own until spring come's along... 

 

Feb 09: A little Miracle, a natural BFP. Praying it sticks around for 9 months.

Feb 11: Beta 25 (yikes)- P4: 47 oh boy, put on progesterone

Feb 13: Beta 86 - P4: 144

Feb 18: Beta 544 - P4: 96

Feb 20: Beta 1128 - P4: 81... increased progesterone to 600mg

Feb 24: Beta 1608 - P4: 100... oh boy, not looking promissing

Feb 25: Beta: 1942 (no P4) at another hospital.. ok, looking better... U/S: sac and yolk. Nothing else.

March 04: HB 115. Problem: Sac is small... repeat u/s next week

March 14: U/S , HB (abdominal) 167bpm (internal) 158bpm. Problem: Sac still small, reapeat u/s in 10 days..

March 24: U/S confirmed no HB.. stop progesterone. M/C that same evening


#14 Annick*

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 10:48 PM

They are really good with the call backs :)
Me : Normal=) DH : Normal =) Unexplained infertility IVF #1 :ER may 06 2013 : 15 retrieved , 11 mature , 8 fertilized 7 made to it 5 day blast ET may 11 2013 : BFN FET#1 : BFN Changed Clinic FET#2 : June 2014 BFN FET#3 : Transferred 2 5day Blasts September 15th 2014 = BFP Beta #1 = 264 Beta #2 = 858 =D

#15 ebonyglare

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 05:33 PM

Are there any current MRC patients? If so, how are things going?


February 2014 - A pleasant surprise!

 

See About Me page for the details :)


#16 RYLIE91011

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  • My Clinic:MTL Fertility Center (Dr. Mahutte)

Posted 04 September 2013 - 12:31 PM

Are there any current MRC patients? If so, how are things going?

I am!  awaiting for an FET... should be next week!  Dr. Tan is away right now but I called in to have another doctor look into deciding if I can go ahead with transferring 2 this time around. 

 

Are you starting a cycle soon?


Me: 37, TTC since July 2011

Husband: 38- thought it was DNA fragmentation-turns out maybe not

DX: Unexplained, possibly polyp (removed),

 

Nov 2012: Totally natural IVF cycle, 2 eggs retrieved, one fertilized, day2 transfer of a "perfect" 4 cell embryo, BFN

 

Jan 23 2013: starting modified natural cycle (150 puregon day 4, 6, 8) day 4 US: 5 follicles on L side, 7 follicles on R side
Feb 4 2013: ER: 9 eggs retrieved. Cyst drained during ER as well.
Feb 5th: 1 egg mature+ICSI, fertilized. 3 immature eggs maturing in lab, 5 immature.
Feb 6th: 1 embryo dividing well, 3 eggs matured and ICSI done, waiting to see if fertilized. 5 discarded. tentative transfer day feb 8th.
Feb 8th: ET, 1xday 4 (cells have started to compact.) 3 leftovers have fertilized.
Feb 11th: call from embryologist: 3 leftovers arrested. nothing to freeze.
Feb 14th: 6dp4dt, HPT-BFN major bummer.
Feb 20th, Beta BFN

 

April 2013:Fresh Cycle. Antagonist protocol. 150puregon/day+Orgalutran+Ovidrel.

April 8th: 12 eggs collected, 8 mature, 7 fertilized. 7 blasts, 6 hatching, 1 hatched.

April 13th: 1 great looking hatching blast transferred.  6 blasts frozen.

April 22: crying my eyes out,cry.gif feel period coming. BETA on the 24th.

April 24th: NEGATIVE BETA, but got call saying that I can start preparing for FET right away

 

May 14th: FET 1 hatching blast BETA May 24th.

May 17-18: cramps at 3dpFET, then on and off since

May 18th: hpt BFN 

May24th: BETA day: BFN. Told to wait out a cycle before pursuing another FET.

 

June 2013: Hubs did a second DNA fragmentation test with another urologist for a second opinion.  Test came back at 15% abnormal, so... now within the norm... huh??? So happy but wondering how it went from 59% fragmented down to 15% fragmented.  Morphology still low.

 

July 15 2013: Hysteroscopy, Endo Biopsy done.  They've removed a polyp as well.  Still waiting for full results... darn summer vacations, making test results delayed... so anxious.

 

August 28th 2013: Green light to start Estrace today for FET

Sept 4: on duty Dr. (not Dr. Tan) gave me a big NO on a double transfer due to me having blasts and my age URGH!

Sept 11th: Transfer day.  surprise! Dr tells me they're transferring 2 hatching blasts.  lower quality though...

Sept 23: Beta: negative.

WTF appointment Sept 26.

 

5 3 frozen hatching blasts left.

Immune Testing: positive for high CD56 (and other stuff moderate)

 

December 21 2013: Cycle starts! Immune protocol: Prednisone, Lovenox, Estrace, PIO, Doxy, Medrol, Calcium

Perfect lining (triple stipe, first time the technician is so happy with it!)

Transfer on Jan 7th, Empty Bladder transfer. (so much easier!)

1 blast didnt make it thru thaw, 2 great ones left, transferred both. so nothing left from our 2nd cycle.

Embryologist particularly thrilled with an almost fully hatched blast.

Jan 20: Beta 208

Viability Scan Feb 3

Feb 3: no gestational sac found. Beta 5.9.

 

March 2014: IVF#3

7 eggs, 6 mature, 4 blasts.

Immune: prednisone, Lovenox, Intralipids. 

transferred 2, 2 frozen.

April 3rd: BFN.

 

Thats it.  consult at MFC.  BIG polyp found right on implantation site.  Seems to have been there all along and was never properly removed or not completely in the past. 

 

Clinic Switch to MFC- a world of difference.

 

Aug 21: polyp removal-hysteroscopy- done by a specialist in polyp removal.

Sept 8th: FET cycle starts.

Sept 24: transfer 2 medium quality day 5 embryos (3AA and 2AB)

Oct 3: BETA  (sneaked a FRER on my way home from blood test: very dark BFP) at 9dp5dt: 279

repeat Beta Oct 6: 1276

viability scan: Oct 21st

 

 

 


#17 ebonyglare

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 04:09 PM

Ither than Drs Tan and Dahan, who are the doctors there?

I start suppression today in the hopes that I can finally cycle next month. Since you are doing an FET, do you know how many cycles you need to wait after ER before they will do an FET?

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that they do a double transfer for you. Have they ever looked into why they aren't implanting?

February 2014 - A pleasant surprise!

 

See About Me page for the details :)


#18 RYLIE91011

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:40 PM

There are other doctors but I dont know their names... one of them called me during Dr. Tan's absence to tell me no on the double transfer (GRRR!!!)

 

I'm still gonna try to slip in an email to Dr. Tan on the day he returns to see ... can't hurt to be persistant.  I'll keep asking at every transfer from now on LOL

 

I'm trying to understand your question regarding the FET... you mean after your ER+Fresh transfer, (if it fails) how long to wait for an FET?

 

I was able to get an FET the cycle immediately after.  But then they make you wait one cycle in between each FET.

 

Dont know for sure why mine wont stick... thats why I did a hysteroscopy and endo biopsy. :) I've had a polyp removed so maybe thats why it didnt work... or embryo arrested, or combination of both I guess... its frustrating isnt it?


Me: 37, TTC since July 2011

Husband: 38- thought it was DNA fragmentation-turns out maybe not

DX: Unexplained, possibly polyp (removed),

 

Nov 2012: Totally natural IVF cycle, 2 eggs retrieved, one fertilized, day2 transfer of a "perfect" 4 cell embryo, BFN

 

Jan 23 2013: starting modified natural cycle (150 puregon day 4, 6, 8) day 4 US: 5 follicles on L side, 7 follicles on R side
Feb 4 2013: ER: 9 eggs retrieved. Cyst drained during ER as well.
Feb 5th: 1 egg mature+ICSI, fertilized. 3 immature eggs maturing in lab, 5 immature.
Feb 6th: 1 embryo dividing well, 3 eggs matured and ICSI done, waiting to see if fertilized. 5 discarded. tentative transfer day feb 8th.
Feb 8th: ET, 1xday 4 (cells have started to compact.) 3 leftovers have fertilized.
Feb 11th: call from embryologist: 3 leftovers arrested. nothing to freeze.
Feb 14th: 6dp4dt, HPT-BFN major bummer.
Feb 20th, Beta BFN

 

April 2013:Fresh Cycle. Antagonist protocol. 150puregon/day+Orgalutran+Ovidrel.

April 8th: 12 eggs collected, 8 mature, 7 fertilized. 7 blasts, 6 hatching, 1 hatched.

April 13th: 1 great looking hatching blast transferred.  6 blasts frozen.

April 22: crying my eyes out,cry.gif feel period coming. BETA on the 24th.

April 24th: NEGATIVE BETA, but got call saying that I can start preparing for FET right away

 

May 14th: FET 1 hatching blast BETA May 24th.

May 17-18: cramps at 3dpFET, then on and off since

May 18th: hpt BFN 

May24th: BETA day: BFN. Told to wait out a cycle before pursuing another FET.

 

June 2013: Hubs did a second DNA fragmentation test with another urologist for a second opinion.  Test came back at 15% abnormal, so... now within the norm... huh??? So happy but wondering how it went from 59% fragmented down to 15% fragmented.  Morphology still low.

 

July 15 2013: Hysteroscopy, Endo Biopsy done.  They've removed a polyp as well.  Still waiting for full results... darn summer vacations, making test results delayed... so anxious.

 

August 28th 2013: Green light to start Estrace today for FET

Sept 4: on duty Dr. (not Dr. Tan) gave me a big NO on a double transfer due to me having blasts and my age URGH!

Sept 11th: Transfer day.  surprise! Dr tells me they're transferring 2 hatching blasts.  lower quality though...

Sept 23: Beta: negative.

WTF appointment Sept 26.

 

5 3 frozen hatching blasts left.

Immune Testing: positive for high CD56 (and other stuff moderate)

 

December 21 2013: Cycle starts! Immune protocol: Prednisone, Lovenox, Estrace, PIO, Doxy, Medrol, Calcium

Perfect lining (triple stipe, first time the technician is so happy with it!)

Transfer on Jan 7th, Empty Bladder transfer. (so much easier!)

1 blast didnt make it thru thaw, 2 great ones left, transferred both. so nothing left from our 2nd cycle.

Embryologist particularly thrilled with an almost fully hatched blast.

Jan 20: Beta 208

Viability Scan Feb 3

Feb 3: no gestational sac found. Beta 5.9.

 

March 2014: IVF#3

7 eggs, 6 mature, 4 blasts.

Immune: prednisone, Lovenox, Intralipids. 

transferred 2, 2 frozen.

April 3rd: BFN.

 

Thats it.  consult at MFC.  BIG polyp found right on implantation site.  Seems to have been there all along and was never properly removed or not completely in the past. 

 

Clinic Switch to MFC- a world of difference.

 

Aug 21: polyp removal-hysteroscopy- done by a specialist in polyp removal.

Sept 8th: FET cycle starts.

Sept 24: transfer 2 medium quality day 5 embryos (3AA and 2AB)

Oct 3: BETA  (sneaked a FRER on my way home from blood test: very dark BFP) at 9dp5dt: 279

repeat Beta Oct 6: 1276

viability scan: Oct 21st

 

 

 


#19 ebonyglare

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 11:53 AM

I want to start this message by saying that I don't work for MRC.

 

I have been dealing with them since May of this year. While at times they can grate on my nerves because they can be a little disorganized at times, the staff are consistently very helpful and do have my best interests at heart. They are all extremely friendly and I'm happy that some of them know me by name. The receptionists and the nurses reply to my emails in a timely manner and I've never had anything but a pleasant experience while physically being in the clinic. I've also been very lucky to not encounter those couples who bring their less than disciplined child(ren) to the clinic while I was there. I do find the men's change room a little cheesy, but I'm sure it's getting the job done!

 

I believe that we get in what we put out. MRC unfairly gets a bad reputation and maybe because it's easy to bash. I have no idea. I just think that people get out what they put in. At a minimum, people should give it a fair chance before writing it off. It's not always the clinic that's the problem.

 

And now I'm going back to my corner.


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February 2014 - A pleasant surprise!

 

See About Me page for the details :)