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Uterine lining question for FET


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#1 babatime

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Posted 03 January 2010 - 11:50 PM

I am so glad DR McCulloch that you have joined us and thank you so much for your time.

I am gearing up for FET and would like to know if there is anything I could do naturally to increase my uterine lining thickness?

We have done TMC+acupuncture for 1 and a half years both my DH and I with out success.
Then we had 2 IUI, one IVF ( that was poor respond from my part) while also doing acupuncture. ( please check my profile for details on the cycles)
It seems that in a natural cycle my uterine lining don't get beyond or barely gets to 7mm. In worst case only to 4.5mm.
Our second IVF we had plenty of eggs my estrogen (E2) levels were in the 20000's and still only had 7.5mm lining which is boarder line for IVF.
So is there any supplements herbs I could take to improve uterine lining?

Thank you so kindly for your time.
Kat
Me 42 DH 39
5 Years Unexplained
IUI x 2 with clomid feb, march 2009 BFN
-----------------------
IVF # 1 Jun/July 2009, BFN
-----------------------
IVF#2 November/December 2009 BFN
______________
FET # 1 Feb/March BFP

Lily Annabelle born on September 26th at 11:48 am at 29 weeks gestation. Welcome to the world my little angel.
David Lucca born on September 26th at 12:47 pm at 29 weeks gestation. Welcome to the world my little angel.

#2 DrFionaMcCulloch

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 12:47 AM

Hi Kat,
Sounds as if you may have low blood flow since E2 was not the problem. L-Arginine is one of the basic things to try for circulation, it improves endometrial receptivity and blood flow in the endometrium by regulating nitric oxide. I also find it's a good idea to make sure your ferritin is above 40-50.
Dose for L-Arginine is usually 2g twice daily.
I also want to mention that if you have herpes or cold sores, L-Arginine may stimulate outbreaks. If it's a mild case you can counter this with lysine. If more severe L-Arginine may not be for you.
Take care,
Dr Fiona



I am so glad DR McCulloch that you have joined us and thank you so much for your time.

I am gearing up for FET and would like to know if there is anything I could do naturally to increase my uterine lining thickness?

We have done TMC+acupuncture for 1 and a half years both my DH and I with out success.
Then we had 2 IUI, one IVF ( that was poor respond from my part) while also doing acupuncture. ( please check my profile for details on the cycles)
It seems that in a natural cycle my uterine lining don't get beyond or barely gets to 7mm. In worst case only to 4.5mm.
Our second IVF we had plenty of eggs my estrogen (E2) levels were in the 20000's and still only had 7.5mm lining which is boarder line for IVF.
So is there any supplements herbs I could take to improve uterine lining?

Thank you so kindly for your time.
Kat


Dr. Fiona McCulloch, BSc., ND : Naturopathic Doctor, Integrative Women's Health & Fertility
White Lotus Integrative Medicine
Greenfield Ave, Suite 201
North York, Ontario, M2N 3CBCanada
phone (416) 730-8218



 
 

#3 babatime

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 01:01 AM

Thank you so kindly for your time and advice.
Will start on that in the morning. ( I have it as I took that at my last cycle)
For ferritin levels do I get a blood test from my GP?


If I could have one more question please.
Can you please tell me about Macca root ( powder or capsules)??
I have read about it and not sure were the scale is on it.

Thank you so much.
Kat
Me 42 DH 39
5 Years Unexplained
IUI x 2 with clomid feb, march 2009 BFN
-----------------------
IVF # 1 Jun/July 2009, BFN
-----------------------
IVF#2 November/December 2009 BFN
______________
FET # 1 Feb/March BFP

Lily Annabelle born on September 26th at 11:48 am at 29 weeks gestation. Welcome to the world my little angel.
David Lucca born on September 26th at 12:47 pm at 29 weeks gestation. Welcome to the world my little angel.

#4 DrFionaMcCulloch

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 01:52 AM

Hi Kat,
you can get the ferritin test from your GP, it's a test for stored iron, which is often not done routinely. I've seen clinically that low ferritin can definitely add to poor circulation in cases of thin lining esp in those with good e2 levels.
Maca is mainly an "adaptogen" which means that it reduces the impact of stress on the body and supports the function of the adrenal glands. It has historically/traditionally been used for fertility in both men and women and a few studies have indicated its effectiveness for fertility especially in men. I have noted clinically that it very much increases libido and energy in women. I do recommend it sometimes for female fertility, but only for certain cases. There is some research for its use in peri and post menopausal women and improvement of hormonal parameters in these cases and I have definitely seen that in clinic as well.
Take care,
Dr Fiona
Dr. Fiona McCulloch, BSc., ND : Naturopathic Doctor, Integrative Women's Health & Fertility
White Lotus Integrative Medicine
Greenfield Ave, Suite 201
North York, Ontario, M2N 3CBCanada
phone (416) 730-8218



 
 

#5 babatime

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 02:14 AM

Thank you kindly for your respond and answer. Again.

I did have that test by GP I just didn't know ferritin was stored iron. She said I had great values. Now that I think back My GP did that test the very first. How ever she did find that my vitamin D was boarder line for intervention. It was in the forties, and they like to see it over eighty. I went on supplements for a year and my repeat test was just over eighty.

Thank you so much for your respond to Macca. I guess I can stop taking that, I don't need more libido LOL or energy I need better uterine lining and blood flow.

Thank you so kindly
Me 42 DH 39
5 Years Unexplained
IUI x 2 with clomid feb, march 2009 BFN
-----------------------
IVF # 1 Jun/July 2009, BFN
-----------------------
IVF#2 November/December 2009 BFN
______________
FET # 1 Feb/March BFP

Lily Annabelle born on September 26th at 11:48 am at 29 weeks gestation. Welcome to the world my little angel.
David Lucca born on September 26th at 12:47 pm at 29 weeks gestation. Welcome to the world my little angel.

#6 DrFionaMcCulloch

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 03:01 PM

Hi again Kat,
another thing that can be linked to poor pelvic blood flow is cortisol. Cortisol is a stress hormone which is secreted by the adrenal gland, and it is related to poorer blood flow in the uterine artery. This is part of why stress reduces fertility. Even if not elevated to a very high degree, a mild elevation over a long time can cause a decrease in blood flow. This is where the adaptogenic treatments can help as well as stress management practices such as yoga, deep breathing or qi gong.

There are many ways to help reduce cortisol and improve adrenal response and often it can take a few months of treatment with the right protocol to work on this. To really work on this thoroughly it requires lifestyle change with good diet, relaxation techniques, acupuncture, adaptogenic nutrients or plant extracts(Maca is one but there are many some may be more suited to you) and circulatory promoting antioxidants : this process may take around 3 months prior to the cycle.

Cortisol reduces nitric oxide release in the uterine artery, so the l-arginine can help to counter this as it enhances production of nitric oxide. However, working with the body's response to stress is of utmost importance and the combination forms of treatment produce a much better response.
warmest regards
Dr Fiona
Dr. Fiona McCulloch, BSc., ND : Naturopathic Doctor, Integrative Women's Health & Fertility
White Lotus Integrative Medicine
Greenfield Ave, Suite 201
North York, Ontario, M2N 3CBCanada
phone (416) 730-8218



 
 

#7 ~*Megan*~

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 03:49 PM

Lots of great info here, I think my lining is our issue as well!
Tks Dr McCulloch
Our Journey to Parenthood
TTC Since September 2007 - Diagnosis "Unexplained Infertility"
Me 28 - DH 30


Sept 2007-2008 - Trying au natural - When it was fun ;)
Sept 2008 Refered to 1st clinic, what a waste of time
Dec 2008 - Told by old clinic both my tubes were blocked, going for a lap...
Feb 2009 - Lap. done, both tubes clear and open, were never blocked
March 2009 - Clinic gave us the wrong patients results - switched clinics
April 2009 - Started at ISIS
May 2009 - 1st B2B IUI - DH counts amazing, 72 and 42 million 90% mobility - BFN!!! devastated beyond words
June 2009 - IUI #2 - 3 Good follicles - June 16th (113 million sperm, 99% motility WOOHOO) and 17th!! Beta Day July 1st - 14DPIUI...AF arrived...wondering how much more we can take :(
July 2009 - IUI #3 - Changed to timed BD...CD10 (July 10th) Only one good follicle, 2.2 I think, chose timed BD instead of IUI#3, due to only one follicle - we are going to try "au natural " this cycle - BFN again...
August 2009 - Taking time off and enjoying each other, 1st adoption meeting Sept 16th, and I also have a free round of Gonal-F waiting for us at the clinic when we decide to go back - Became a Moderator here at IVF.CA!! Thrilled to be about to give back to a wonderful site and great group
September 2009 - Explored the adoption process with Halton CAS Sept. 16 then decided to take time off from TTC and save for more fertility treatments in the future...
October 2009 - Decided to submit our application for adoption (Oct 27th) and started acupuncture, will not give up we will have a family one day
November 2009 - Finally met Karolyn, she stayed with DH and I for 3 days, she is like a sister to me, and had a few wonderful meet up's with other amazing women from the site...words can not describe what an amazing weekend that was
December 2009 - Re-doing a bunch of tests - hopefully a few IUI's in the new year with a different protocol - Maybe PRIDE training in March
January 2010 - Results from SONO and HSG, all looks great, Right tube questionable, not a huge concern as per Dr. Saving for IVF as that is our next option...might be a few years, hopefully not. Hopefully our miracle will come before -Wondering why is this so hard??
Jan 2010 Cont'd - Accepted to PRIDE training starting in March, SAFE home study to follow...We can finally dream again...
March 2010 - Started PRIDE March 22nd - 9 classes, 3 hrs every Monday night - Enjoying the class, looking forward to the future, getting all our documents ready for our SAFE homestudy package
May 1st 2010 - BFP on a HPT!!! Holy crap how did that happen...May 2nd Beta 182...May 4th Beta 300...1st U/S May 14th - 1st U/S shows healthy miracle bean - H/B and all - 127 beats per minute, what a wonderful moment between DH and I


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Forget about all the reasons why something may not work. You only need to find one good reason why it will...

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#8 babatime

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 07:52 PM

Thank you so much for all this great information DR Fiona.
Me 42 DH 39
5 Years Unexplained
IUI x 2 with clomid feb, march 2009 BFN
-----------------------
IVF # 1 Jun/July 2009, BFN
-----------------------
IVF#2 November/December 2009 BFN
______________
FET # 1 Feb/March BFP

Lily Annabelle born on September 26th at 11:48 am at 29 weeks gestation. Welcome to the world my little angel.
David Lucca born on September 26th at 12:47 pm at 29 weeks gestation. Welcome to the world my little angel.

#9 RainbowsPromise

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 10:19 PM

Dr. Fiona, how long would you suggest someone take l-arginine? My herbalist had me on it last year, before we had testing to find out the reasons for our infertility, and I'm gearing up for a donor embryo cycle. I have been off it now for a while but from your info above, I'm thinking I should go back on it. Is it something you can continue to take during pregnancy or should you stop once you've had transfer?

You've shared a ton of great info and already, you're a welcome addition to the forums!
Me 42 DH 44 Married since 2005 and have been TTC the whole time.One adoption revocation through the AB govt (son taken back by birth family after 6 days)Multiple failed clomid cyclesMultiple failed home IUI cycles.Two failed IVF cycles (didn't get to retrieval).Pursuit of donor embryos through direct donation.FET with direct donor embryos in Nov 2010 resulted in a BFP!Jan 2011- both empty sacs and m/c has begun. June 2011- Second donor embryo cycle (anonymous donor). BFN.Oct 2011- Third donor embryo cycle (anonymous donor). BFN.Nov 2011- Pursuing private adoption through Christian Adoption Services.May 2012- Officially on the waiting list for CAS.See "About Me" page for specifics on our journey and continued updates.Believing that God WILL answer our prayers for children! He is the one who placed the desire for children in our hearts so we trust that it will happen.... in His time. The message that keeps coming is from Psalm 37:7 "Be still before the Lord and wait patiently for Him". December 2013- God has answered our prayers in a way we truly didn't think was possible- we brought home a little boy and survived the 10-day waiting period, lol. To Him be the glory- the testimony of this little one is amazing!

#10 DrFionaMcCulloch

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 10:47 PM

Hi Rainbows,
Well, L-Arginine again is not for everyone. If given in cases where it's not needed it actually may reduce quality of embryos as there will be an accumulation of nitric oxide at high levels while the follicle is developing. It is definitely not an across the board treatment for everyone. It tends to be most helpful for those who have had "poor response" in past IVF cycles because what we are looking to do is mimic physiological amounts of this component in those with poor blood flow due to low nitric oxide.

If we give too much, especially in women who respond well normally it may actually be detrimental according to one study. I'd definitely suggest some caution and to find out for sure if it is right for you. I find it very effective when given in the right case. If you have poor blood flow and poor response has happened in the past for you, it may be helpful. I do not recommend it during pregnancy. The amount of time to take it varies from patient to patient depending on overall progress.
warmest regards and thanks for your question!
Dr Fiona
Dr. Fiona McCulloch, BSc., ND : Naturopathic Doctor, Integrative Women's Health & Fertility
White Lotus Integrative Medicine
Greenfield Ave, Suite 201
North York, Ontario, M2N 3CBCanada
phone (416) 730-8218



 
 

#11 RainbowsPromise

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 12:09 PM

Thanks Dr. Fiona. So what you're saying is that a person needs to have a poor uterine lining for this to be effective. My lining's been OK, just my ovaries haven't responded so I'll be doing a FET with embryos that have been donated to us. I think I'll keep up with my acupuncture and forego adding anything else to my regimen.

That's what I love about naturopathic medicine... such an individualized approach! Thanks again!
Me 42 DH 44 Married since 2005 and have been TTC the whole time.One adoption revocation through the AB govt (son taken back by birth family after 6 days)Multiple failed clomid cyclesMultiple failed home IUI cycles.Two failed IVF cycles (didn't get to retrieval).Pursuit of donor embryos through direct donation.FET with direct donor embryos in Nov 2010 resulted in a BFP!Jan 2011- both empty sacs and m/c has begun. June 2011- Second donor embryo cycle (anonymous donor). BFN.Oct 2011- Third donor embryo cycle (anonymous donor). BFN.Nov 2011- Pursuing private adoption through Christian Adoption Services.May 2012- Officially on the waiting list for CAS.See "About Me" page for specifics on our journey and continued updates.Believing that God WILL answer our prayers for children! He is the one who placed the desire for children in our hearts so we trust that it will happen.... in His time. The message that keeps coming is from Psalm 37:7 "Be still before the Lord and wait patiently for Him". December 2013- God has answered our prayers in a way we truly didn't think was possible- we brought home a little boy and survived the 10-day waiting period, lol. To Him be the glory- the testimony of this little one is amazing!

#12 DrFionaMcCulloch

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 10:38 PM

Hi Rainbows,
Did not realize you were doing FET(which I see was in your signature now - how great to have everyone's signatures with so many details)
With FET we don't have to be concerned about too much nitric oxide produced by L - Arginine as we would in IVF(since in IVF we are concerned primarily with follicle health and if nitric oxide is very very high it may be detrimental to follicles development). There is evidence that L-Arg may improve implantation by increasing blood flow and tissue perfusion so may indeed be helpful for FET implantation.

Just wanted to clarify, it may help patients with thin lining generally, OR helps with implantation in those who have had poor responses to IVF previously (even in cases without thin lining since nitric oxide also regulates ovarian function).
The nitric oxide produced by L-Arginine opens the vessels and allows the estrogen to be better delivered to the endometrial tissue(this is how it can thicken the lining).

What I was mentioning in the previous post is one study which shows that it can have negative effects on follicle quality when someone tends to be a good responder(likely because they already have enough nitric oxide and blood flow). For this reason I don't usually recommend it for someone's first IVF, only for those who have had difficulty in previous cycles. Also important to always ok things with your RE for use during the cycle itself.

Hope that clarifies things
Thank you for your question, and take care
Dr Fiona
Dr. Fiona McCulloch, BSc., ND : Naturopathic Doctor, Integrative Women's Health & Fertility
White Lotus Integrative Medicine
Greenfield Ave, Suite 201
North York, Ontario, M2N 3CBCanada
phone (416) 730-8218



 
 

#13 RainbowsPromise

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 10:32 AM

Thanks for that clarification, Dr. Fiona. Now I definitely have something to think about!
Me 42 DH 44 Married since 2005 and have been TTC the whole time.One adoption revocation through the AB govt (son taken back by birth family after 6 days)Multiple failed clomid cyclesMultiple failed home IUI cycles.Two failed IVF cycles (didn't get to retrieval).Pursuit of donor embryos through direct donation.FET with direct donor embryos in Nov 2010 resulted in a BFP!Jan 2011- both empty sacs and m/c has begun. June 2011- Second donor embryo cycle (anonymous donor). BFN.Oct 2011- Third donor embryo cycle (anonymous donor). BFN.Nov 2011- Pursuing private adoption through Christian Adoption Services.May 2012- Officially on the waiting list for CAS.See "About Me" page for specifics on our journey and continued updates.Believing that God WILL answer our prayers for children! He is the one who placed the desire for children in our hearts so we trust that it will happen.... in His time. The message that keeps coming is from Psalm 37:7 "Be still before the Lord and wait patiently for Him". December 2013- God has answered our prayers in a way we truly didn't think was possible- we brought home a little boy and survived the 10-day waiting period, lol. To Him be the glory- the testimony of this little one is amazing!

#14 feydruss

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 11:39 AM

I have a FET in two weeks. Is it too late to start L-arginine now to try to optimize results? I had "attempted implantation" on my first fresh cycle.

3rd cycle was the charm (despite everything going wrong)!
History and details in my profile
Twin boys Milan and Duncan born at 32w4d on 15 November 2010


#15 DrFionaMcCulloch

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 12:51 PM

Hi Fey
It's not too late to get some benefits from it. Although it takes 3 months to really improve these kinds of concerns with an overall nutritional/supplement/acupuncture protocol, the L-Arg may provide some benefits even now if it fits your case. Definitely ask your RE, because he/she would know more about the specifics of your case from your last cycle and if indeed blood flow is a factor!
warmest regards
Dr Fiona

I have a FET in two weeks. Is it too late to start L-arginine now to try to optimize results? I had "attempted implantation" on my first fresh cycle.


Dr. Fiona McCulloch, BSc., ND : Naturopathic Doctor, Integrative Women's Health & Fertility
White Lotus Integrative Medicine
Greenfield Ave, Suite 201
North York, Ontario, M2N 3CBCanada
phone (416) 730-8218



 
 

#16 babatime

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 01:38 PM

I just wanted to bump this thread for Fenn411.
Not sure if it's helpful.

I did get pregnant with a border line lining thickness ( check my profile for details) on a FET cycle. Was on estrace and prometrium much longer than normal, plus used supplements.
Me 42 DH 39
5 Years Unexplained
IUI x 2 with clomid feb, march 2009 BFN
-----------------------
IVF # 1 Jun/July 2009, BFN
-----------------------
IVF#2 November/December 2009 BFN
______________
FET # 1 Feb/March BFP

Lily Annabelle born on September 26th at 11:48 am at 29 weeks gestation. Welcome to the world my little angel.
David Lucca born on September 26th at 12:47 pm at 29 weeks gestation. Welcome to the world my little angel.

#17 vicky

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 06:56 PM

hello,

could I take arginine if from time to time I have cold sores?
Thank you Posted Image

#18 DrFionaMcCulloch

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 09:51 AM

Hi vicky,

You can, however it may actually trigger the cold sores to break out. You can counter this with L-Lysine at 1000mg 3x/day at first sign, or at 1000 mg 1x/day as prevention.

Dr Fiona
Dr. Fiona McCulloch, BSc., ND : Naturopathic Doctor, Integrative Women's Health & Fertility
White Lotus Integrative Medicine
Greenfield Ave, Suite 201
North York, Ontario, M2N 3CBCanada
phone (416) 730-8218



 
 

#19 vicky

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 09:36 AM

Hi vicky,

You can, however it may actually trigger the cold sores to break out. You can counter this with L-Lysine at 1000mg 3x/day at first sign, or at 1000 mg 1x/day as prevention.

Dr Fiona


Thank you

wish you a happy new year
t